<html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> </head> <body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""> <blockquote type="cite" class="">The interface promises to return a Particle object (or rather a vector of them), so it can't just be a bare momentum object... and cf. all this discussion it needs to know about its contents, etc. I guess we could set the Particle::pid() to 0, but for now we set it to 23. And yes, caveat emptor re. Born Z's etc.! Not sure the solution to that is technical, unless we wanted to call it a "PseudoZFinder" cf. pseudo-tops.</blockquote> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">Ok, that’s what I thought. Pid = 0 makes more sense to me than pid = 23, but I guess that’s debatable. PseudoZFinder is probably (hopefully?) not necessary… </div> <div class=""> </div> <div class="">Cheers,</div> <div class="">Chris</div> <div class=""> </div> <div> <blockquote type="cite" class=""> <div class="">On 1 Jul 2016, at 16:28, Andy Buckley <<a href="mailto:a.g.buckley@gmail.com" class="">a.g.buckley@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div> <div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On 01/07/16 16:18, Christian Gutschow wrote:<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> Thanks for clarifying, Andy! I see the problem about the recursion now. Will have to think about your points more carefully, but just to comment on this one: <blockquote type="cite" class="">* consitutents() vs rawConstituents()/etc.: the distinction is recursion. Let's say I have a ZFinder, and I ask it for its particles(). It returns me a vector of Particles with pid = 23. I then call Particle:: constituents() on each of those and what do I get? I'd expect the two DressedLeptons*. And if I call constituents() on each of _those_, I finally get down to the fundamental bare leptons and photons which have corresponding GenParticles. So my distinction between Particle::constituents() and Particle::rawConstituents() (please, a better name!) is that the latter would recurse to find the indivisible consitutents, possibly through several layers of composition. Make sense? I guess an indivisible would be defined as a Particle with an empty constituents vector (the existence of which is essential if Particles are to have finite size!!) </blockquote> What the ZFinder::particles() would actually return is the 4-momentum combination of the (dressed) leptons for a given pair, no? Are we currently assigning a pid to the ZFinder::bosons()? The pid = 23 makes it look like it's the actual Z boson from the event record which (i) doesn’t exist depending on the generator and (ii) I could imagine people will use to cook up all sorts of Born-level nonsense not explicit enough about this. </blockquote> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">The interface promises to return a Particle object (or rather a vector of them), so it can't just be a bare momentum object... and cf. all this discussion it needs to know about its contents, etc. I guess we could set the Particle::pid() to 0, but for now we set it to 23.<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">And yes, caveat emptor re. Born Z's etc.! Not sure the solution to that is technical, unless we wanted to call it a "PseudoZFinder" cf. pseudo-tops.<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> How about components() for "constituent, maybe composite" and constituents() for indivisible constituents then? </blockquote> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Actually, I rather like that. Only issue is that the words are quite similar, but I think it's neat. Other people's thoughts and suggestions?<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Cheers,<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Andy<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <blockquote type="cite" class="">On 1 Jul 2016, at 14:54, Andy Buckley <<a href="mailto:a.g.buckley@gmail.com" class="">a.g.buckley@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:a.g.buckley@gmail.com" class="">mailto:a.g.buckley@gmail.com</a>>> wrote: Thanks Chris, great to have feedback. These are some of the awkward points I've been juggling internally. I pretty much agree with your first 3 paragraphs and think they are what I'm saying. I absolutely agree that if running an XFinder, then I expect the Particles to be returned by XFinder::particles() to be Xs. Which is not the current behaviour. One nuance: if ZFinder is a ParticleFinder (I think it is...) then the bosons would also be accessed through the inherited particles() method. Of course we won't want to apply smearing to Z bosons, but it would be an obvious consequence of defining that particles/constituents access on the base class, and a const ParticleFinder& is what SmearedParticles accepts as an input. Other points: * consitutents() vs rawConstituents()/etc.: the distinction is recursion. Let's say I have a ZFinder, and I ask it for its particles(). It returns me a vector of Particles with pid = 23. I then call Particle:: constituents() on each of those and what do I get? I'd expect the two DressedLeptons*. And if I call constituents() on each of _those_, I finally get down to the fundamental bare leptons and photons which have corresponding GenParticles. So my distinction between Particle::constituents() and Particle::rawConstituents() (please, a better name!) is that the latter would recurse to find the indivisible consitutents, possibly through several layers of composition. Make sense? I guess an indivisible would be defined as a Particle with an empty constituents vector (the existence of which is essential if Particles are to have finite size!!) * bosons() vs. boson(): IIRC the ZFinder code says something specific about only being able to find one candidate boson per event. But since C++ has no NULL/None "invalid value" that can be returned from a boson() function (unless using pointers), we started with bosons() and hence lots of code that looked like bosons()[0]. boson() is just syntactic sugar for that -- I think it throws an exception if there is no boson to be returned, but haven't explicitly checked for that. * Thanks for input on the "release something imperfect, soon". I also think it's the way forward. Any objections? "Release early, release often", as Linus said. Cheers, Andy * Eek. Here's an awkwardness: a vector<Particle> will have sliced each contained DressedParticle down to its Particle base class. To use them as DressedLeptons would require a dynamic_cast (or reinterpret_cast?), or be impossible. Hopefully adding constituent-awareness to Particle will make DressedLepton unnecessary so we can avoid this problem, but this is the sort of thing that makes seemingly simple reorganisations difficult. On 01/07/16 14:27, Christian Gutschow wrote: <blockquote type="cite" class="">Hi Andy, why do we need a new name and cannot stick to particles and constituents, but make them distinct? Is there a technical reason or is it just backward compatibility? Ignoring the status quo, naively I would think that if I call particles(), say on the DressedLeptons projection, it should return what I asked it to find, i.e. the dressed leptons, whereas if I run constituents(), it will give me the raw particles used in the making of dressed leptons, all of them. Whereas if I run constituents on an individual DressedLepton object, it will only give me the raw particles for the individual dressed lepton. If I apply the same logic to the ZFinder, I would think we need something like bosons() which returns the (dressed) dilepton pairs, on each of which I can call particles() which will give me the two dressed leptons (for said candidate), and on each of those I can call constituents(), which will give me the bare electron and the photons, as above. If I then ask for the smeared versions, I would get a smeared dressed lepton on the particles() level and individually smeared bare leptons and photons on the constituent level. I think this is more or less what you’re suggesting in step a), I’m just not sure why we need rawConstituents or simpleConstituents and can’t just use constituents for this. Right now, the ZFinder already has the plural bosons(), but then we also have the singular boson() which doesn’t make any sense if there are multiple bosons to be found, so why exactly is it there in the first place? I’m also unsure about what the ZFinder is going to give me when I call constituents() on the projection, especially if there are multiple Z candidates. (Is it the bosons? Is it an even number of dressed leptons? How are they ordered? …) Anyway, the distinction between particles and constituents may work conceptually for composite particles, but admittedly the same logic doesn’t work with jets. At the moment we can call either particles or constituents on a Jet object and they will both return the same thing, which I think is fine for Jet objects, but it’s not immediately obvious that these two are aliases for one another in this case. Perhaps that’s not really a problem though? I’m all in favour of your last suggestion, i.e. pushing out something 95% useful asap. For all we know, we may end up receiving some feedback which could well influence the ironing out of the remaining details. Cheers, Chris <blockquote type="cite" class="">On 29 Jun 2016, at 14:00, Andy Buckley <<a href="mailto:andy.buckley@cern.ch" class="">andy.buckley@cern.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:andy.buckley@cern.ch" class="">mailto:andy.buckley@cern.ch</a>> <<a href="mailto:andy.buckley@cern.ch" class="">mailto:andy.buckley@cern.ch</a>>> wrote: Hi, Time to grasp a nettle. Remember some weeks back, when putting together a smearing machinery for Rivet, we had some discussion about how to uniformly access composite vs. simple particles from "finder" projections? It seemed awkward, so we stopped. The reason it's important is that at the moment the "finder" projections, more by consensus than explicit design, only return *simple* (i.e. indivisible & directly matched to HepMC objects) constituent particles via the particles() method. There is no equivalent uniform method for accessing composite particles like reconstructed Z bosons or dressed leptons. And that creates a problem, because if I apply an electron smearing or efficiency to an IdentifiedFinalState of simple electrons then what I get out is reasonable, but if I apply the same thing to a DressedLeptons projection then what comes out is a list of simple electrons and photons, which have all had the electron efficiencies applied to them individually. Bad idea. I think to fix this we have to: a) provide *two* methods on the ParticleFinder base class: one for the composite particles that are the semantic output of that projection, i.e. the things we asked it to "find"; and a second for the constituents of those things. I personally feel that changing the meaning of particles() to mean "semantic 'found' particles, maybe composite", and adding a new simpleParticles(), rawParticles() or similar is nicer (but more work) than keeping particles() as-is and adding some even-more-awkwardly named maybeCompositeParticles(). b) implement these by adding some access to constituents to the Particle interface, e.g. const vector<Particle>& Particle::constituents(). And maybe a recursively-assembled Particle::rawConstituents() or simpleConstituents(): good, short & intuitive naming ideas welcome! Care needed to avoid object size blow-ups. Use these methods to implement the ParticleFinder::rawParticles() etc. I think this can work -- but it's not clear to me whether the implementation will be smooth or full of pitfalls. Probably we should plan for the latter. Any particular concerns or better ideas? Now we've got 2.5.0beta2 out, and the next step should be a full 2.5.0 release. *Ideally* well before the tutorial at CERN on 14th (?) July, so the participants can use that and play with the new machinery. And I'm wondering if we can fix this issue in time for that, or should we put it out now for BSMers to play with and just warn to stick to using projections with "simple" returns for now -- which most will be happy to do, because BSM analyses don't usually bother with details like dressing their leptons. I am drifting toward pushing "full consistency" back to 2.6.0 (since an API change would be involved) and giving them something 95% useful asap. Thoughts? Cheers, Andy -- Dr Andy Buckley, Lecturer / Royal Society University Research Fellow Particle Physics Expt Group, University of Glasgow _______________________________________________ Rivet mailing list <a href="mailto:Rivet@projects.hepforge.org" class="">Rivet@projects.hepforge.org</a> <<a href="mailto:Rivet@projects.hepforge.org" class="">mailto:Rivet@projects.hepforge.org</a>><<a href="mailto:Rivet@projects.hepforge.org" class="">mailto:Rivet@projects.hepforge.org</a>> <a href="https://www.hepforge.org/lists/listinfo/rivet" class="">https://www.hepforge.org/lists/listinfo/rivet</a> </blockquote> — Dr. Christian Gütschow University College London Department of Physics and Astronomy Gower Street London WC1E 6BT > D10 Physics Building > +44 (0)20 7679 3775 ><a href="mailto:chris.g@cern.ch" class="">chris.g@cern.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:chris.g@cern.ch" class="">mailto:chris.g@cern.ch</a>><<a href="mailto:chris.g@cern.ch" class="">mailto:chris.g@cern.ch</a>> </blockquote> -- Dr Andy Buckley, Lecturer / Royal Society University Research Fellow Particle Physics Expt Group, University of Glasgow </blockquote> — Dr. Christian Gütschow University College London Department of Physics and Astronomy Gower Street London WC1E 6BT > D10 Physics Building > +44 (0)20 7679 3775 > <a href="mailto:chris.g@cern.ch" class="">chris.g@cern.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:chris.g@cern.ch" class="">mailto:chris.g@cern.ch</a>> </blockquote> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">-- <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Dr Andy Buckley, Lecturer / Royal Society University Research Fellow<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""> <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Particle Physics Expt Group, University of Glasgow</div> </blockquote> </div> <div class=""> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""> <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); 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font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> Dr. Christian Gütschow</div> <div style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> </div> <div style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> University College London</div> <div style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> Department of Physics and Astronomy</div> <div style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); 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font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> > +44 (0)20 7679 3775</div> <div style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> > <a href="mailto:chris.g@cern.ch" class="">chris.g@cern.ch</a></div> </div> </div> <br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html>